Curse

makosi · Jun 19, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

My thoughts on Dervishes:

After doing every HM Canthan mission recently, I assessed the problems and benefits I faced in comparison to other melees: warrior, scythe ranger and assassin (scythe and daggers).

Dependence on enchantments, long casting times and low armour level were the three most frustrating issues. The Dervish enchantments I've been using - Eternal Aura, Aura of Holy Might, Heart of Fury - have 1s, 3/4s and 3/4s casting times respectively as well as after casts. This makes for sluggish gameplay when you compare it to the popular scythe-sin enchantments (Critical Agility and Way of the Master) and the smoothness of transitioning between Warrior stances. Also, whichever dev selects skills for monsters absouletly loves Chilblains which means that the trudgingly slow process of enchanting-up becomes almost futile.

I like Conviction, but not the attribute. Earth Prayers doesn't allure me and I dislike splitting my attributes four ways; in this case between Scythe Mastery, Mysticism and Wind Prayers (for Attacker's Insight.) I'd prefer to shift the burden of protection on to my heroes' bars instead - after all I need room for attack skills.

Suggestions (from a PvE mind set):

Avatar forms: reduce activation time to 1 second and possibly reduce the energy cost of Melandru to 15.

IAS: Pious Fury is a nuisance with the enchantment removing clause and Heart of Fury has ~33% down time, moderate energy cost and high vulnerability to removal. Tweak IAS skills to be a bit longer or, perhaps, nuke an unused dervish skill and change it to an IAS.

Armour: How about adding 3 armour for every 3 ranks of Mysticism in PvE? So if you're running 12 Mysticism you'll have +12 armour.

I'll update this with more when my brain is functioning better.

tealspikes · Jun 19, 2010, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garreth MacLeod

All of you that are asking for these various buffs do realize that the monsters get the same buffs we players do, right?

If we can assume that human players generally will make better use of their skills than a cpu, then any buff will generally benefit the human player much more than the cpu. Also, players can tailor their skillbar to exploit certain enemies, monsters are static. If the general power of skills increase, so does the potency of counters and exploits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

As said before, balance is relative. If everything is overpowered, nothing is.

Thats only if everything is overpowered. Not just skills, but core game mechanics like armor levels, base damage, movement speed, etc.
Don't forget, skills are not just balanced around other skills, but around the foundations of the game. Even if buffing all these mechanics along with the underpowered skills was possible, it would not be feasable.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 19, 2010, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Realistically having true balance in such a format/genre is unattainable especially when the definition of "true balance" is subjectively defined by individual opinion....on a minority forum.

World peace seems more realistic.

On the same token though wouldn't the game be rather dull if it was balanced and skills were just never modified? I personally find it interesting and fun to ride the wave of constant skill nerfs and buffs...which obviously aren't as constant as they used to be.

Cuilan · Jun 19, 2010, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Dervish are still a caster profession. Agree with having their own role instead of stepping on others, but I'm sure rangers and mesmers will still want to interrupt them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

In PvE I long ago gave up on grouping with my Derv. If it weren't for my crazy awesome guild, my Derv would never be in DoA/UW/FoW/Urgoz/Deep.

Have you tried Physway? It works in all the areas you mentioned except Gloom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

5. Better e-management for Monks.

8. Cons nerf.

9. Shadow Form nerfed for real.

I agree cons and Shadow Form could use a bit more nerfing.

Monks shouldn't need more energy. Ether Renewal or commonly used skills that work with it need nerfing or weakening. Having monking easy will take the game out of Guild Wars.

AlsPals · Jun 19, 2010, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Might not be a "balance" but increasing the general frequency of some choice drops in dungeons so anyone who isn't speed clearing it won't ragequit. BTW, the buffing of skills have mad some encounters(ROJs, Spiritual Pain, Esurge) in HM a pain, though in some instances can be fun. Some.

UnChosen · Jun 19, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

Might not be a "balance" but increasing the general frequency of some choice drops in dungeons so anyone who isn't speed clearing it won't ragequit. BTW, the buffing of skills have mad some encounters(ROJs, Spiritual Pain, Esurge) in HM a pain, though in some instances can be fun. Some.

Definitely agree with this, I just didn't bring it up because I figured Anet has enough on their hand already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Monks shouldn't need more energy. Ether Renewal or commonly used skills that work with it need nerfing or weakening. Having monking easy will take the game out of Guild Wars.

With mobs that deals over 300 damage a hit in HM, there's only a few ways to actually deal with it.

1) Tank N' Spank
-BORING as hell, and does not promote any sort of skillful play, as well as eliminating any non-damage class choices. Not to mention how skills in Tank N' Spank style teams are always the target of nerf requests.

2) Make everyone STAY STILL and spam protection on one person.
-Basically Tank N' Spank with extra work, and can be easily overwhelmed if the mob is large enough and/or contain enchant strips

3) Spam protection and heal on everyone
-Impossible to do with monk's current energy management options.

4) Make everyone "invincible" with SY!
-People would try to get this skill nerfed sooner or later.

Of course the better thing to do is to actually remove the 300+ damage mobs like Bladed Aatxe and most stuff in DoA and actually implement some balanced mobs like those in slavers...

J I L T · Jun 20, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Lol wut

Monks and Ritualists heal for more than plenty. They also both protect amazingly. They really don't need much more changin...

Yeah and dervs deal more than enough scythe damage. Hammers, blood magic, pets, mesmers and plenty of other stuff could all get the job done but they got buffs anyway. Never said monks, paragons or rits couldn't keep people alive just that defense isn't getting nearly as much attention as offense and the gap between paragons, rits and monks is ridiculous. How is that rits and paragons are not only better damage dealers but they also have unremovable party wide and spammable damage reduction? Monks can only use aegis or bonds to provide party wide protection and only one skill can't be removed. Paragons have garbage healing, rits and paragons lack single target protection. I'm not saying there needs to be a lot of huge game breaking changes or whole classes need overhauls just even things out a bit with some modest buffs.

Cuilan · Jun 20, 2010, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

With mobs that deals over 300 damage a hit in HM, there's only a few ways to actually deal with it.

There are many ways to keep a party going. Making monks turn hard mode to stupid mode and would cause a lot of harm to paragons, mesmers, ritualists, and others. Have the ritualist spirits tank, dual spirit spam, have an minion master, conditions mesmer, defensive Soul Twisting, or have your melee do damage.

UnChosen · Jun 20, 2010, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

There are many ways to keep a party going. Making monks turn hard mode to stupid mode and would cause a lot of harm to paragons, mesmers, ritualists, and others. Have the ritualist spirits tank, dual spirit spam, have an minion master, conditions mesmer, defensive Soul Twisting, or have your melee do damage.

Lots of ways that are all gimmicky, skill-less, and/or slow. Its pretty much protect the entire team, make sure the mob doesn't hit the team, or hex/condition every single one without fail. I see no difference between spamming conditions on everywhere, spamming spirits everywhere, or spamming heals/prots its still a gimmick to deal with mobs that cannot be pre-protted or reactively protted with skill.

SoS is already the target for nerf on this forum, and minions doesn't work well in elite areas. And it still doesn't take away from the fact that its completely mindless...spam stuff and monk doesn't have to do anything. Its like saying that monk is overpowered because they don't need to do anything pre-SF nerf.

Which was why I added that it would be way better if the mob was balanced in the first place. All the tactics that PvP monks use are completely useless when mobs can kill in 2 hits and has permanent IMS/IAS.

Either way, please don't exaggerate "improving E-management" with "spamming", it would take a whole lot of buff for monks to come anywhere close to what some of the other class can do.

Cuilan · Jun 20, 2010, 01:04 AM // 01:04

How dare those other professions have various well working roles and builds. Darn them to hell.

If monks had a ton of energy, they would mindlessly spam and you know it.

UnChosen · Jun 20, 2010, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

How dare those other professions have various well working roles and builds. Darn them to hell.

If monks had a ton of energy, they would mindlessly spam and you know it.

More energy =! A ton of energy....If you played with a decent number of pugs you would know that monks run out of energy like mad, even with the more skilled ones. As for the average "stupid" pugs...oh boy let's not go there.

Cuilan · Jun 20, 2010, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

More energy =! A ton of energy....If you played with a decent number of pugs you would know that monks run out of energy like mad, even with the more skilled ones. As for the average "stupid" pugs...oh boy let's not go there.

That's a problem with the player and the group. Making attributes and roles of professions useless is not balance.

Del · Jun 20, 2010, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

How dare those other professions have various well working roles and builds. Darn them to hell.

If monks had a ton of energy, they would mindlessly spam and you know it.

When they dumbed down mesmer you seemed somewhat satisfied. when they took some of the brainlessness out of mindwrack you made a thread just to complain about it, yet you're against other professions being mindless?

Cuilan · Jun 20, 2010, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Mesmers weren't dumbed down and no, I obviously don't think professions should be mindless. Derrr.

Monks obviously have useful skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

i wouldn't nerf it, so much as revert it.

/sighned anyways

Wait, what? You can't make Flare more useful than DWG?

Lanier · Jun 20, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

While I am all for making the game more defensive and slower paced, I really don't think monks need an energy management buff. As a player monk, with smart tactics like not over aggroing, flagging in AoE, and tailoring your party for the area, and placing your prots smartly, managing energy really isn't difficult at all. Without having to cast spells continually, and with almost all of their good spells casting 5 energy, the other few costing 10 energy, and a couple of useful signets, monks have pretty spectacular passive energy management. In addition, heroes have the ability to abuse inspiration skills like pdrain or waste not, want not for energy. Monks simply don't need the extra energy management.

Quote:

With mobs that deals over 300 damage a hit in HM, there's only a few ways to actually deal with it.

Don't overexaggerate. only bosses typically hit for over 300 damage, and you only ever have to fight more than one at a time. Prot spirit solves this, and when combined with careful tactics like taking care not to overaggro, flagging when necessary, and calling targets smartly, you really shouldn't have a problem in PvE with non-gimmicky or balanced teams.

Del · Jun 20, 2010, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mesmers weren't dumbed down and no, I obviously don't think professions should be mindless. Derrr.

Monks are obviously have useful skills.

Wait, what? You can't make Flare more useful than DWG?

I can't think of anything on an esurge bar that requires any amount of skill to play. So whining about mindwrack being slightly toned down but saying monks shouldn't have better e management is still pretty ass backwards. And i don't see the point of that quote, but hey, you obviously don't have an argument.

Cuilan · Jun 20, 2010, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

So whining about mindwrack being slightly toned down but saying monks shouldn't have better e management is still pretty ass backwards. And i don't see the point of that quote, but hey, you obviously don't have an argument.

The thread was made because it was a step back and perhaps a somewhat unneeded change (regardless of what it was or did) from a long overdue overhaul of a profession. You were the user who threw an unrelated skill into discussion when others were discussing something else. I quoted that because you seem to have a difficult time understanding some skills have more uses than others. Suddenly one skill is too useful. When you said dumbed down, you pointed to a skill that had something to make it more useful but retaining one of the same functions. Healing and prot is already useful.

AlsPals · Jun 20, 2010, 03:14 AM // 03:14

@ Lanier
Whew, im so against slower paced it is not even funny. I slogged through SoO, Menagerie, and Excavations, and the return on time spent vs the absurdity of odds isn't balanced right. Without a better reason to do so, the slow and steady approach, unless you enjoy long and fruitless battles, wastes a ton of time. Even though there was an exaggeration about damage, HM creatures typically pack 100HP punches in any skill, and auto attack ive seen upwards of 80. HM stacks the deck, but in general, build wars takes care of that little problem. Its just when mobs are double or more player size, its a little irritating.

@Del
I don't agree that mesmers were dumbed down, per se, but E-Denial has never been a really talent-exclusive archetype to run. Just 2 skills were absurdly stupid(Mind Wrack was elite worthy, and is still very good.). Unfortunately, when Wrack and Overload were toned, the builds got tossed. Community is fickle like that. If you ask me, im confused as to which version of E-Surge is better though:The old slightly lower damage, higher cost, but wider AOE range version or the current super efficiently costed, Slightly higher damage with smaller AOE version.

Del · Jun 20, 2010, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

The thread was made because it was a step back and perhaps a somewhat unneeded change (regardless of what it was or did) from a long overdue overhaul of a profession. You were the user who threw an unrelated skill into discussion when others were discussing something else. I quoted that because you seem to have a difficult time understanding some skills have more uses than others. Suddenly one skill is too useful. When you said dumbed down, you pointed to a skill that had something to make it more useful but retaining one of the same functions. Healing and prot is already useful.

LOLWUT? someone suggested improving monk e management, you said

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

How dare those other professions have various well working roles and builds. Darn them to hell.

If monks had a ton of energy, they would mindlessly spam and you know it.

So i brought up your DERP little thread about reverting mindwrack, even though it is still strong, you felt the need to have it reverted so it would still trigger on hexes, because making it slightly less brainless was such a terrible thing. Yet here you seem to think improving monk e management= making it brainless. also, that quote was from the dwg thread, still completely irrelevant. Even if it was relevant, i signed for a revert/ nerf because dwg is extremely simplistic, dull as dirt, and really the buff was unnecessary. And you, so against brainlessness would see the merit in it, but being a hypocrite, you don't, and go so far as to use it as a pointless completely irrelevant argument to something that has nothing to do with anything, proving nothing.
But it's cool, you obviously don't have an actual argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

@Del
I don't agree that mesmers were dumbed down, per se, but E-Denial has never been a really talent-exclusive archetype to run. Just 2 skills were absurdly stupid(Mind Wrack was elite worthy, and is still very good.). Unfortunately, when Wrack and Overload were toned, the builds got tossed. Community is fickle like that. If you ask me, im confused as to which version of E-Surge is better though:The old slightly lower damage, higher cost, but wider AOE range version or the current super efficiently costed, Slightly higher damage with smaller AOE version.

Play RA for an hour, and try to tell me the fickle community tossed it. And e surge seriously takes no skill whatsoever. mindwrack, mash buttons, just as insanely simplistic as playing fire ele.

AlsPals · Jun 20, 2010, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Play RA for an hour, and try to tell me the fickle community tossed it. And e surge seriously takes no skill whatsoever. mindwrack, mash buttons, just as insanely simplistic as playing fire ele.

Oh, I thought we were talking about a serious format, at least GvG, lol. You can run just about anything in RA with a single target in mind and rape. The class didn't get dumbed down, dumb people just run dumb things.